A good text editor for JAVA?  
Author Message
efriedNoSpam





PostPosted: 2005-12-4 14:11:00 Top

java-programmer, A good text editor for JAVA? In article <email***@***.com>, email***@***.com wrote:
>In article <email***@***.com>,
>Roedy Green <email***@***.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:23:34 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama"
>><email***@***.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
>>said :
>>
>>>s/days/years
>>
>>I found EMACs drove me nearly nuts. My editing CUA reflexes were well
>>below conscious control. It was like being given a keyboard with all
>>the keys randomly rearranged. Even the mouse worked a different way.
>>Even its legendary programmability could not make up for that.
>>
>>Even if you do adjust, if you go back to another CUA editor I found
>>the reflexes don't recover. I am "uniligual" as a typist. I can't be
>>proficient on two editors for the same reason I can't rapidly type
>>both QWERTY and DSK. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/dsk.html
>
>Sing it. I also have had trouble trying to become multilingual with
>regard to editors, though I'm a vim bigot who gets annoyed when she
>has to use .... maybe "CUA editors" is the right term. As you say,
>knowing which keys to use for common editing tasks becomes a reflex
>action, and trying to use something that uses different keys for
>the same tasks is not only irritating but also can seem to mess up
>the reflexes, which is a whole other level of irritation.
>
>However, I had an interesting exchange in comp.editors recently with
>someone who says that he uses lots of tools on lots of platforms and
>claims that *if you practice enough* you can develop the ability
>to switch back and forth seamlessly. But he claims that it takes
>a *lot* of practice. The thread is in comp.editors, subject line
>"GENERAL: Formatting text in Linux?", participants me and a Brian
>Masinick, if anyone wants to find it in the archives. (Sorry about
>not providing a URL or message IDs, but I'm not sure how to do that
>unambiguously.)
>
[snip]

It's all about how you want to use your time. I could use my time learning
lots of different tools and editors or I could find a handful of tools and use
my time to look at new apis/languages or work on open source projects, etc.

Eric
 
efriedNoSpam





PostPosted: 2005-12-4 14:11:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? In article <email***@***.com>, email***@***.com wrote:
>In article <email***@***.com>,
>Roedy Green <email***@***.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:23:34 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama"
>><email***@***.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
>>said :
>>
>>>s/days/years
>>
>>I found EMACs drove me nearly nuts. My editing CUA reflexes were well
>>below conscious control. It was like being given a keyboard with all
>>the keys randomly rearranged. Even the mouse worked a different way.
>>Even its legendary programmability could not make up for that.
>>
>>Even if you do adjust, if you go back to another CUA editor I found
>>the reflexes don't recover. I am "uniligual" as a typist. I can't be
>>proficient on two editors for the same reason I can't rapidly type
>>both QWERTY and DSK. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/dsk.html
>
>Sing it. I also have had trouble trying to become multilingual with
>regard to editors, though I'm a vim bigot who gets annoyed when she
>has to use .... maybe "CUA editors" is the right term. As you say,
>knowing which keys to use for common editing tasks becomes a reflex
>action, and trying to use something that uses different keys for
>the same tasks is not only irritating but also can seem to mess up
>the reflexes, which is a whole other level of irritation.
>
>However, I had an interesting exchange in comp.editors recently with
>someone who says that he uses lots of tools on lots of platforms and
>claims that *if you practice enough* you can develop the ability
>to switch back and forth seamlessly. But he claims that it takes
>a *lot* of practice. The thread is in comp.editors, subject line
>"GENERAL: Formatting text in Linux?", participants me and a Brian
>Masinick, if anyone wants to find it in the archives. (Sorry about
>not providing a URL or message IDs, but I'm not sure how to do that
>unambiguously.)
>
[snip]

It's all about how you want to use your time. I could use my time learning
lots of different tools and editors or I could find a handful of tools and use
my time to look at new apis/languages or work on open source projects, etc.

Eric
 
Chris Uppal





PostPosted: 2005-12-4 18:50:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? email***@***.com wrote:

> I have a colleague who uses vi to write C programs, Eclipse to write
> Java programs, and word-processor-du-jour for prose. He says that he
> finds it fairly easy to keep them straight because he uses the different
> editors for different tasks. (Not sure why he thinks of C programming
> and Java programming as so different .... )
>
> This is, of course, somewhat at odds with what I think of as the
> "traditional Unix" approach of having everything in text files and
> using the same editor for all.

Which brings us full circle and (almost) back on topic for this thread !

Well done ;-)

-- chris


 
 
jussij





PostPosted: 2005-12-5 7:29:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? The Zeus for Windows IDE has support for Java:

http://www.zeusedit.com/features.html
Note: Zeus is shareware (45 day trial).

It has features like class browsing, syntax highlighting,
smart indent, code folding, project/workspace management,
integrated version control etc.

The Zeus Quick Help feature also works with the Java SDK
help file:

http://www.zeusedit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10

providing a quick and easy way to access the SDK information.

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus for Windows

 
 
Nigel Wade





PostPosted: 2005-12-5 21:58:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? Oliver Wong wrote:

>
> "Nigel Wade" <email***@***.com> wrote in message
> news:dmpno0$ojr$email***@***.com...
>>
>> I don't think you'll ever find and IDE which provides a really good text
>> editor.
>> For example, take what is arguably the most popular Java IDE, Eclipse,
>> where
>> are the macro facilities, or the ability to do even basic editing tasks
>> like
>> convert case, or capitilize?
>
> Not that I'm an Eclipse zealot or anything, but...
>
> Presumably you were using Eclipse in it's "Java Perspective" mode, which
> was intented to edit Java source code. In such a context, features like
> "captilize all the characters in the selection" would not be so useful;
> perhaps more useful would be "Rename this class, and make sure every
> reference to this class is updated appropriately" (which Eclipse DOES do).

Comments? Javadocs?

There are times when I want to capitalize or change from lower to upper or vice
versa.

--
Nigel Wade, System Administrator, Space Plasma Physics Group,
University of Leicester, Leicester, LE1 7RH, UK
E-mail : email***@***.com
Phone : +44 (0)116 2523548, Fax : +44 (0)116 2523555
 
 
Oliver Wong





PostPosted: 2005-12-6 0:15:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA?
"Nigel Wade" <email***@***.com> wrote in message
news:dn1h0s$6pk$email***@***.com...
> Oliver Wong wrote:
>>
>> Presumably you were using Eclipse in it's "Java Perspective" mode,
>> which
>> was intented to edit Java source code. In such a context, features like
>> "captilize all the characters in the selection" would not be so useful;
>> perhaps more useful would be "Rename this class, and make sure every
>> reference to this class is updated appropriately" (which Eclipse DOES
>> do).
>
> Comments? Javadocs?
>
> There are times when I want to capitalize or change from lower to upper or
> vice
> versa.

Sorry, but this is going to be one big long run-on sentence:

Uusually when I want to change the capitalization in a comment or
JavaDoc, it is only one character that I want changed -- e.g. the first
character of a sentence which was mistakenly not capitalized (perhaps
because I had let go of the shift key too early or something) -- OR it is
that I had not yet broken my habit of capitalizing all the characters in an
abbreviation -- e.g., where KB stands for Knowledge Base and ID stands for
Identification, naming a methid getKBManagerUserID() instead of
getKbManagerUserId(), which requires an understanding of the English
language to recognize word boundaries and so probably could not be done via
a macro.

- Oliver


 
 
Monique Y. Mudama





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 4:08:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? On 2005-12-03, Roedy Green penned:
> On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:34:05 GMT, Roedy Green
><email***@***.com> wrote, quoted or
>indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>>>I've never encountered any interference between the two (any more
>>>than I encounter interference between the two major modes of vi).
>>
>>My partner is like you.
>
> She is also bilingual in accent. When she talks to me, she uses a
> Canadian accent, and when talking to her mom, a Alabaman one,
> including the unusual southern grammar.

Odd.

I grew up speaking both English and German. I have never been able to
speak English with a German accent, or German with an American accent,
though I can definitely recognize it. I think my mind has mapped the
sounds to the languages, and I can't produce them in the "wrong"
context.

--
monique

Ask smart questions, get good answers:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 
 
Monique Y. Mudama





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 4:09:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? On 2005-12-03, email***@***.com penned:
>
> I have a colleague who uses vi to write C programs, Eclipse to write
> Java programs, and word-processor-du-jour for prose. He says that
> he finds it fairly easy to keep them straight because he uses the
> different editors for different tasks. (Not sure why he thinks of C
> programming and Java programming as so different .... )
>

I sure think of them as different! Especially if you really mean C,
not C++.

--
monique

Ask smart questions, get good answers:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 
 
Monique Y. Mudama





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 5:03:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? On 2005-12-02, Roedy Green penned:
>
> I got a copy of SlickEdit which worked the same on Windows and
> Linux. I have been using it ever since.

The standard editor at my last job was SlickEdit. I couldn't stand
it. It seemed to love corrupting the tags database, among other
things. But the real reason I abandoned it was that its vi emulation
mode didn't emulate well enough.

--
monique

Ask smart questions, get good answers:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 
 
Monique Y. Mudama





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 5:05:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? On 2005-12-02, Oliver Wong penned:
>
> "Nigel Wade" <email***@***.com> wrote in message
> news:dmpno0$ojr$email***@***.com...
>>
>> I don't think you'll ever find and IDE which provides a really good
>> text editor. For example, take what is arguably the most popular
>> Java IDE, Eclipse, where are the macro facilities, or the ability
>> to do even basic editing tasks like convert case, or capitilize?
>
> Not that I'm an Eclipse zealot or anything, but...
>
> Presumably you were using Eclipse in it's "Java Perspective"
> mode, which was intented to edit Java source code. In such a
> context, features like "captilize all the characters in the
> selection" would not be so useful; perhaps more useful would be
> "Rename this class, and make sure every reference to this class
> is updated appropriately" (which Eclipse DOES do).
>
> You're right though that if you want to use Eclipse as a plain
> text editor, there aren't many features or macros provided.
>
> However, there's no technical reason why someone couldn't write
> a plugin that provided all those features, perhaps calling it
> "Text Editing Perspective" or "XEmacs Perspective" if the user
> interface were made particularly XEmacs-like. I'm not sure how
> painful it would be to emulate vi's behaviour (I don't know how
> much abstraction you'd have to break to directly capture
> key-events), but it's probably possible as well.
>

I'm pretty sure there *is* a vi plugin for eclipse. It's not free in
any sense, and I haven't tried it, but maybe it does what you're
describing.

I have been burned by supposedly 'vi compatible' modes so many times
that I am loathe to spend money to try it.

--
monique

Ask smart questions, get good answers:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 
 
Monique Y. Mudama





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 5:51:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? On 2005-12-03, zero penned:
> "Monique Y. Mudama" <email***@***.com> wrote in
> news:email***@***.com:
>
>>
>> Yes, learning libraries is important, but I don't think remembering
>> the spelling and capitalization of every method name is. So what?
>> It's important to know that if I want to convert a String to an
>> int, I can use the Integer class. Sure. But is it really so
>> important to remember the exact method name? Why?
>>
>
> I was more trying to say that the newby wouldn't learn that
> capitalization matters in java. And I believe having code
> completion hampers learning libraries. You could just type a
> reference variable, and select a method from the list.

As opposed to opening a browser, loading the javadocs, looking up the
type, and *then* selecting a method from the list, copying and pasting
it.

I agree that the javadoc approach is slower; it's not clear to me that
it really forces any more learning.

I think my difference of opinion stems from my belief that motivated
individuals will learn; unmotivated individuals won't. It's possible
you could claim that Eclipse and other high-powered IDEs can act as a
crutch, allowing individuals to crawl along who might give up if they
were forced to use more basic tools. Of course, you could use the
same argument to support the idea that all programs should be written
in assembler, or maybe machine code.

> Last year I had to work on an old Windows NT machine, and on a Linux
> server installation. Neither was anywhere near strong enough to
> run an IDE like eclipse. It was a good thing I was used to coding
> java with nothing more than textpad and the command line compiler.

I agree that anyone who works with Java should have those skills. I
don't think that means that we should eschew more powerful tools.

--
monique

Ask smart questions, get good answers:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 
 
Monique Y. Mudama





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 5:53:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? On 2005-12-02, Jeffrey Schwab penned:
>
> I went back to Vim after the first wrist surgery. I don't plan ever
> to go back. Why people are still writing new editors, rather than
> customizing existing ones, is beyond me.

One of my professors claimed that she never had problems with carpal
tunnel until she started using a mouse.

I personally find that using a mouse hurts my wrist pretty quickly; I
use trackballs whenever possible, and even then try to do most things
by keyboard, with a wrist pad.

--
monique

Ask smart questions, get good answers:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 
 
Chris Smith





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 6:29:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? Monique Y. Mudama <email***@***.com> wrote:
> I agree that anyone who works with Java should have those skills. I
> don't think that means that we should eschew more powerful tools.
>

Absolutely!

The self-righteous "do it yourself" answer is too myopic in this case.
Programming isn't typing. It is about doing a lot of things at once,
and typing is among the least important of them. Even if a programmer
has to wait a couple seconds for code completion -- and obviously could
have just typed the identifier name in that time period -- the task of
writing code is going to be far more sustainable if that time can be
used for thinking, resting, relaxing the wrist, or whatever.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
 
 
Monique Y. Mudama





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 7:16:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? On 2005-12-06, Chris Smith penned:
> Monique Y. Mudama <email***@***.com> wrote:
>> I agree that anyone who works with Java should have those skills.
>> I don't think that means that we should eschew more powerful tools.
>
> Absolutely!
>
> The self-righteous "do it yourself" answer is too myopic in this
> case. Programming isn't typing. It is about doing a lot of things
> at once, and typing is among the least important of them. Even if a
> programmer has to wait a couple seconds for code completion -- and
> obviously could have just typed the identifier name in that time
> period -- the task of writing code is going to be far more
> sustainable if that time can be used for thinking, resting, relaxing
> the wrist, or whatever.

I'll admit that for many years, I avoided Eclipse. Its features were
clunky and slow. I felt the same about every other IDE I tried.

The modern Eclipse is responsive enough that it finally feels like
it's helping my productivity, not hindering it. Mostly.


--
monique

Ask smart questions, get good answers:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 
 
blmblm





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 18:10:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? In article <email***@***.com>,
Roedy Green <email***@***.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:09:26 -0000, "Chris Uppal"

[ snip ]

>What sort of world could accommodate non-ambidextrous people?
>
>It would allow you to configure your ENTIRE machine for how you wanted
>various low level editing behaviours to work, then EVERY program would
>comply. Similarly menus would use the same word for a function.

vi-style editing in MS Word .... Nah, don't think that's going to
happen. But it's entertaining to think about!

[ snip ]

--
| B. L. Massingill
| ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
 
 
blmblm





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 18:11:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? In article <email***@***.com>,
Roedy Green <email***@***.com> wrote:
>On 3 Dec 2005 16:39:33 GMT, email***@***.com wrote, quoted or
>indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>>There's someone else in .... comp.text.tex, I think .... who claims
>>to be bilingual in MS Word and emacs, and he sounds moderately clueful
>>about both. But that's two tools, not dozens.
>
>The experiment that needs to be done it to measure X's SPEED at MS
>word and Emacs than challenge him to learn a third editor. Now go back
>and measure his proficiency in MS and Emacs.
>
>The experiment you really want is this: Take 99 people. Train 33 on
>Emacs, 33 on Word and 33 on both. Then measure each person's fastest
>speed on either editor. I conjecture the pure Emacs people should be
>most productive.
>

Either of those would be an interesting experiment to perform.
I wonder whether anyone has done it! It seems like some of those
HCI folks would have done something along these lines ....

>
>I will conjecture that if two programs are sufficiently different, you
>can attain unconscious proficiency in both because conceptually the
>reflexes you develop don't overlap, analogously to playing both the
>piano and trombone. It seems to me that editors have unavoidable
>overlap at the most fundamental level -- insert, delete, replace,
>navigate.
>

--
| B. L. Massingill
| ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
 
 
iamfractal





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 19:46:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA?
Roedy Green wrote:
> On 3 Dec 2005 16:39:33 GMT, email***@***.com wrote, quoted or
> indirectly quoted someone who said :
>

>
> The experiment you really want is this: Take 99 people. Train 33 on
> Emacs, 33 on Word and 33 on both. Then measure each person's fastest
> speed on either editor. I conjecture the pure Emacs people should be
> most productive.
>

More wild off-topicking, but this thread does seem to foster it ...

Just how much do we think the (I)DE or typing-speed affects
productivity? I know the former at least is task-dependent (if you're
given a huge amount of legacy code the needs every method and class
renamed, then Eclipsers will romp all over Notepadders), but in
general, can it affect much?

I'd guess not. I'd guess any difference attributable to a particular
(I)DE is so small that it sinks below measurable tolerances into the
noise of the (let's face it) astrologically inaccurate project planning
within which we work.

Well, I suppose there are some minimal basics. If you're given a new
(I)DE, and you never learn how to delete, then you're in for some tough
deadlines; but on the whole, I'd say productivity is far more weighted
by requirements-clarity, and programmer and tester experience.

That's probably why, "Use whatever (I)DE you're comfortable with,"
radiates such incontrovertable common sense: it gets you above the
basics; you can delete, save, compile, run.

There. DSCR. I've said it.

.ed

 
 
Chris Uppal





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 19:53:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

> I personally find that using a mouse hurts my wrist pretty quickly; I
> use trackballs whenever possible, and even then try to do most things
> by keyboard, with a wrist pad.

Are you using (or rather, avoiding) those modern "mice" that actually look more
like pregant rats ? Big bulky things that /force/ you to rest your palm on the
beast's spine ? If so -- and if you are like me -- that might be the problem.
With the old-style (shaped like a bar of soap) mice, I can guide the thing with
my fingers; in particular, making precise movements just by flexing my fingers.
With the new kind, that is impossible, so I have to make fine movements with my
wrist/arm, and that becomes killingly painful very quickly. The "rats" are
supposed to be more ergonomic, but not for me they aren't...

-- chris


 
 
Chris Uppal





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 22:55:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? email***@***.com wrote:

> Just how much do we think the (I)DE or typing-speed affects
> productivity?

I'd say that a good (or bad) IDE is a lot more than just an editor, and that
it's the other things that significantly affect productivity. If your speed of
typing (with or without help from "Intellisense", etc[*]) is such that it is a
significant bottleneck then I would say that one of the following apply:

a) You are a /very/ slow typist (serious physical disability,
such as having no hands).

b) You are a /very/ fast thinking -- much, much, faster
than anyone I've ever met.

c) You are wasting your time doing writing repetitive code which
can be and should be automated (or otherwise changed to
remove the repetition).

d) You are a very bad programmer, who programs without
thinking even though thinking is required.

BTW, one place where I do think that fast typing (and good editing features)
make a real difference is that it becomes easier to document code
appropriately.

-- chris

[*] Personally, I find auto-completion and similar intrusive popups, to be a
hindrance rather than a help.


 
 
Oliver Wong





PostPosted: 2005-12-7 23:47:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? "Chris Uppal" <email***@***.com> wrote in message
news:4396f6bd$0$253$email***@***.com...
>
> [*] Personally, I find auto-completion and similar intrusive popups, to be
> a
> hindrance rather than a help.

Maybe in the long term, in that it's may be encouraging memory lost:

I was in the middle of some Java method, and I had type
"someMethodCall( " and then paused, because I knew I wanted to put the local
variable I had declare some moments earlier there, but I couldn't remember
the name of the variable. Well, Eclipse, being what it is, looked up the
method definitions for "someMethodCall" and then found the arguments that
all of its overloaded variants expected. It then looked at all variables
that were visible from the location in the code I was located (local
variables, publicly visible variables, fields from parents, etc.) it then
looked at the type of all these variables, and climb their inheritance tree,
cross-referencing that with the overloaded variants, and seeing which
variables could actually be legal given the type-checking rules.

It then displayed a pop up with my local variable, essentially asking me
"Is this what you're looking for?"

All of this before I had time to send the signals to the muscles that
control my eyes to scroll up and read the variable declaration a few lines
above.

So I find auto-completion helpful, but it concerns me that I can't
remember things that I looked at only a few moments ago.

- Oliver




 
 
Monique Y. Mudama





PostPosted: 2005-12-8 1:50:00 Top

java-programmer >> A good text editor for JAVA? On 2005-12-07, Oliver Wong penned:
>
> So I find auto-completion helpful, but it concerns me that I
> can't remember things that I looked at only a few moments ago.

Oh, I dunno. There's a hard limit to how many things a given person
can keep in his/her "stack" at a time. You probably were juggling
enough other data that you just didn't have room for that piece.

--
monique

Ask smart questions, get good answers:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html