Why Linux + Java

java-programmer, Why Linux + Java asj wrote:

> Yes, a smartcard runs a 30 MB JVM....get a clue and read about it
> before you post.
> I suppose these Java SPOT (smart programmable objects) have a 30 MB JVM
> too?

forgot the link:
http://sunspotworld.com/

> I suppose a lower end mobile phone runs a 30 MB JVM?

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java asj wrote:

> Yes, a smartcard runs a 30 MB JVM....get a clue and read about it
> before you post.
> I suppose these Java SPOT (smart programmable objects) have a 30 MB JVM
> too?

forgot the link:
http://sunspotworld.com/

> I suppose a lower end mobile phone runs a 30 MB JVM?

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java On 29 Apr 2006 10:08:02 -0700, "asj" <email***@***.com> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>You do know Java is an interpreted language right?
Sometimes. Sometimes it is an assembler for a Java chip. Sometimes it
is jitted. Sometimes hotspotted sometimes natively compiled.

The Jet native compiler generates code faster than a human assembler
programmer would write.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java On 29 Apr 2006 09:08:54 -0700, "tab" <email***@***.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>And as I said, JAVA is not PRETTY TO INSTALL.

You need the JDK to develop and a JRE to run. Other than that how is
it different from installing any other program?
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java Roedy Green wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2006 09:08:54 -0700, "tab" <email***@***.com>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
> >And as I said, JAVA is not PRETTY TO INSTALL.
>
> You need the JDK to develop and a JRE to run. Other than that how is
> it different from installing any other program?

and how cool is it to use Java webstart to install stuff?
http://java.sun.com/products/javawebstart/

I've used this to install and automatically update thousands of users
for a java desktop app -

So long as you have the needed JRE, you just click on a link and the
installtion is done for you....

For example:
http://www.javazoom.net/jlgui/sources.html

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java On 29 Apr 2006 10:08:02 -0700, "asj" <email***@***.com> wrote:

>arachnid wrote:
>
>> I used to see a whole lot more programs on the BBS's written in simple
>> 13-step BASIC than in C, but the latter tended to be better-written
>> and more-useful. I mean, how much kernel code is written in Java? How
>> about *nix shells or the GUI?
>
>You do know Java is an interpreted language right?

Yup. That's what makes it so sloooooooow compared to C! ;o)

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 20:34:21 -0500, arachnid
<email***@***.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>Yup. That's what makes it so sloooooooow compared to C! ;o)

It is one thing not to know what you are talking about, and quite
another to pretend you do.

What is this mysterious C! language you are referring to?
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 01:47:30 GMT, Roedy Green
<email***@***.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 20:34:21 -0500, arachnid
><email***@***.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
>someone who said :
>
>>Yup. That's what makes it so sloooooooow compared to C! ;o)
>
>It is one thing not to know what you are talking about, and quite
>another to pretend you do.

I've already made it quite clear that I'm just helping asf try to
start a best-programming-language flameware.

>
>What is this mysterious C! language you are referring to?

If MS can have C#, I can have C!

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java
"arachnid" <email***@***.com> wrote in message
news:email***@***.com...
> On 28 Apr 2006 09:45:01 -0700, "L Leed" <email***@***.com> wrote:
>
>>arachnid wrote:
>>> I said it was unavailable for nearly a year, not that it's unavailable
>>> now. Backporting it a year too late doesn't send me back in a time
>>
>>BS. It was an honest mistake (On Sun's part) that was corrected almost
>>immediately.
>
> A year without a JVM is not "immediately".

According to the comments posted along side the Slashdot article linked
to earlier in this thread, the mistake was corrected before the article
appeared on Slashdot. That's pretty darn close to "immediately", IMHO.

- Oliver

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java In comp.lang.java.advocacy, tab
<email***@***.com>
wrote
on 29 Apr 2006 09:08:54 -0700
<email***@***.com>:
> So,
> JAVA SUCKS ON LINUX.
> I say USA, they give me UK info.
> And as I said, JAVA is not PRETTY TO INSTALL.
>
> Good idea, change to MONO.
>
> But JAVA SUCKS ON LINUX.
>

Client-side Java, unfortunately, sucks just about
everywhere, and it's a pity since I do like Swing's
programming methods, if not its aesthetics. I'm not sure
C# looks much better, either. Ansi C is arguably the best
solution, even if it does feel like using a manual tranny
with an underpowered gearbox at times.

But Ansi C is portable and highly standard.

For those who need interactive scripting, Bash, Python,
and Perl. Tcl/Tk is on the wane from the looks of things.
XML is top dog in the data market (which is OK if one can
tolerate its inefficiency because of <tag>...</tag> and
' ' instead of ' ').

As for installation...that's a more general issue in Linux,
and is probably best argued in COLA as opposed to CLJA.
Followups redirected. I'm not sure it's even a *problem*.

--
#191, email***@***.com
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java the news reports between when the story first broke and when it was
fixed was several days.

asj - still basking under the sun with the nokia 9300 and opera mini
java browser as my windows to the world.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java so what about swing don't you like? maybe swt would be an alternative
for you, or thinlets? u might wanna check out javadesktop.org for new
swing devts.

asj - it's sunny in nj, and my opera mini java browser is a window to
the net around me.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java In comp.lang.java.advocacy, asj
<email***@***.com>
wrote
on 29 Apr 2006 10:08:02 -0700
<email***@***.com>:
> arachnid wrote:
>
>> I used to see a whole lot more programs on the BBS's written in simple
>> 13-step BASIC than in C, but the latter tended to be better-written
>> and more-useful. I mean, how much kernel code is written in Java? How
>> about *nix shells or the GUI?
>
> You do know Java is an interpreted language right?

FSVO "interpreted". Java now comes with a JITter (and
has since 1.2 or 1.3); if a portion of bytecode is run
more than a few times it gets compiled into machine code,
but only at that point.

For its part C# compiles *everything* down to machine code,
presumably upon invoke on the machine requiring the code
(the intermediate byte code is generated by the executable
most people would call the "C# compiler" but that's only
part of the job).

Different philosophies, and AIUI the Java one works
slightly better, but I for one haven't benchmarked the
issue and there's a fair number of differences precluding
such a benchmark, mostly because the languages are quite
different.

[rest snipped]

--
#191, email***@***.com
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java On Mon, 01 May 2006 21:00:05 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
<email***@***.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>FSVO "interpreted". Java now comes with a JITter (and
>has since 1.2 or 1.3); if a portion of bytecode is run
>more than a few times it gets compiled into machine code,
>but only at that point.

On top of that there is hotspotting, -- watching code run to gather
stats to optimise the machine code. And static AOT compilation such
as Jet.

See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jet.html
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java In comp.lang.java.advocacy, asj
<email***@***.com>
wrote
on 1 May 2006 13:29:25 -0700
<email***@***.com>:
> so what about swing don't you like? maybe swt would be an alternative
> for you, or thinlets? u might wanna check out javadesktop.org for new
> swing devts.

Swt would be good. I know nothing about "thinlets" unless you're
referring to something along the lines of ZK:

http://zk1.sourceforge.net/

which is buggy but quite interesting from a UI point of view.

>
> asj - it's sunny in nj, and my opera mini java browser is a window to
> the net around me.
>

Opera's not too bad. It's IE that gives me most headaches. :-)

--
#191, email***@***.com
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java >Other than that how is it different from installing any other program?

Are you for real? Have a user install java and then verify
at www.java.com. Make sure the new version, verifies.

Don't forget, Java does not auto update from sun, but if you
are VERY lucky, your distro will.

And a jar file is not doubleclickable.

YOU ARE BASICALLY A MORON?

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java tab wrote:
> Like, java is not open source?

Although Java the language is not open source, there are tons of open
source Java applications - lin fact, Java is the #1 language used in
SourceForge.

> Sun has been losing money for years?

was this one of your previous arguments? I think not.

Sun has 35,000 employees, has about $7 BILLION in short term assets,
and makes about 11 BILLION dollars a year, so it's not eaxctly in any
danger of folding.

Analysts have long told Sun to lay off lots of people after the dotcoms
exploded, but Sun, unlike some other companies for whom the bottom line
is only profits, refused to do that. In a way, this is stupid, but in
another sense I like the fact they stood by their employees while some
other companies so easily treat them like disposable cogs.

This year, analysts are giving sun stock a thumbs up because the
thought that sun would finally restructure strongly and return to
profitability, but the new CEO seems to again be resisting this.

> That a java jar file, is not by default, double clickable?

Actually, in smaller devices, jar files are automatically installed and
run. I have no idea why it's not so in PCs, but then again i'm not as
stupid as you that i need to have everything clickable. Perhaps you
should go back to the windows world?

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java On Mon, 01 May 2006 14:56:30 GMT, "Oliver Wong" <email***@***.com>
wrote:

>
>"arachnid" <email***@***.com> wrote in message
>news:email***@***.com...
>> On 28 Apr 2006 09:45:01 -0700, "L Leed" <email***@***.com> wrote:
>>
>>>arachnid wrote:
>>>> I said it was unavailable for nearly a year, not that it's unavailable
>>>> now. Backporting it a year too late doesn't send me back in a time
>>>
>>>BS. It was an honest mistake (On Sun's part) that was corrected almost
>>>immediately.
>>
>> A year without a JVM is not "immediately".
>
> According to the comments posted along side the Slashdot article linked
>to earlier in this thread, the mistake was corrected before the article
>appeared on Slashdot. That's pretty darn close to "immediately", IMHO.

That's strange, because I tried again and again for almost a year and
was still unable to get it. There seemed to be an unwillingness to
admit there was a problem. Both FreeBSD.org and freebsdfoundation.org
continued to advertise that Java was available for FreeBSD, but
clicking the links only got me a message saying that negotiations were
still in progress.

Some people were able to get the Linux JVM working under FreeBSD's
linux compatability layer, but it didn't work for everyone and it
didn't work for me. I spent several days beating my head on that one
before giving up. :o(

I'll dig around tommorow and see if I can find anything to back me up.
Right now it's time for bed.

>
> - Oliver

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java tab wrote:
>> Other than that how is it different from installing any other program?
>
> Are you for real? Have a user install java and then verify
> at www.java.com. Make sure the new version, verifies.
>
> Don't forget, Java does not auto update from sun, but if you
> are VERY lucky, your distro will.

I think Java is auto updated from SUN on Windows. jusched.exe process is
present on my system (and this process auto updates Java).

>
> And a jar file is not doubleclickable.
>
Jar file can be doubleclickable on Windows.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java Mishagam wrote:
> I think Java is auto updated from SUN on Windows. jusched.exe process is
> present on my system (and this process auto updates Java).

it is. my 1.42 keeps popping up a dialog every so often telling me
there's an update.

> > And a jar file is not doubleclickable.
> >
> Jar file can be doubleclickable on Windows.

you learn something new everyday.

java-programmer >> Why Linux + Java In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Mishagam
<email***@***.com>
wrote
on Tue, 02 May 2006 03:47:58 GMT
<ODA5g.7157$email***@***.com>:
> tab wrote:
>>> Other than that how is it different from installing any other program?
>>
>> Are you for real? Have a user install java and then verify
>> at www.java.com. Make sure the new version, verifies.
>>
>> Don't forget, Java does not auto update from sun, but if you
>> are VERY lucky, your distro will.
>
> I think Java is auto updated from SUN on Windows. jusched.exe process is
> present on my system (and this process auto updates Java).

It can.

>
>>
>> And a jar file is not doubleclickable.
>>
> Jar file can be doubleclickable on Windows.

This is verging on silly. If one wants a double-clickable app,
one can write a small shell script:

#!/bin/sh
java -jar SwingTest.jar

or

java -classpath SwingTest.jar com.something.SwingTest.Main

if one doesn't like mucking about with META-INF/MANIFEST.MF
for some reason, and doubleclick *that*. There's more
important things here than autorecognition of Java .JAR
files by an OS/desktop (or a desktop component, which in
my case is nautilus).

On Windows, a .BAT or .WSH file serves much the same purpose.

I don't know about auto-updating on Linux, and in any even
Java releases don't come that frequently.

Linux does have a foreign-app registration process, though, which
allows auto-recognition of .JAR files, passing them to a
shell interpreter. In this case, I'm not sure what that would be.

Bear also in mind that a Java application may require a
lot of .jar files, usually libraries such as Xerces, Xalan,
and Castor. While Java does have a Class-Path: directive
in the MANIFEST.MF file, I don't know how well it works.
This makes .jar files roughly equivalent to .o or .obj files,
with the added capability that one might be able to run them
standalone.

I've seen this before -- DomainOS/Aegis had a similar capability.

--
#191, email***@***.com
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.