Outsourcing to India and China

java-programmer, Outsourcing to India and China yeah there was a philosopher back in the 60s by the name of
thornkinson (god i hope that's right) but he went into detail on how
society will eventually solve all its problems through efficient
technology. he supposed built a vehicle that can do like 50mpg back
then.

the light bulb is an interesting question tho. its horribly
inefficient. hasn't changed since edison created it. its used by
literally everyone. you would think someone would realize the
potential in mass producing something better..

however i don't think its physically possible to heat a home using 3
lightbulbs. besides a lightbulb mostly creates heat.

Roedy Green <email***@***.com> wrote in message news:<email***@***.com>...
> On 8 Jan 2004 09:19:43 -0800, email***@***.com (Loco
> Pollo) wrote or quoted :
>
> >it would take 7 planet earths to support
> >everyone with this wasteful lifestyle because we are on the whole
> >inefficient with our resources.
>
> The problem is we have some habits left over from our cave man days
> documented by Thorsten Veblen in the Theory Of The Leisure Class (a
> very funny book published in 1899).
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140187952/canadianmindprod
>
> We like to impress each other with conspicuous consumption and
> conspicuous waste.
>
> Somehow, we must come to equate status with efficient and parsimonious
> use of resources.
>
> I was horrified to learn that the technology to build a house in
> Canada that can be heated with a single light bulb costs only a few
> thousand dollars extra, yet almost no one takes advantage of it.
>
> Yet the houses built today will NEED that technology to be practical
> after the age of oil.
>
> We are like castaways on a desert island, deciding to have a feast on
> whatever washed ashore, before we have any plan to live off the land.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China yeah there was a philosopher back in the 60s by the name of
thornkinson (god i hope that's right) but he went into detail on how
society will eventually solve all its problems through efficient
technology. he supposed built a vehicle that can do like 50mpg back
then.

the light bulb is an interesting question tho. its horribly
inefficient. hasn't changed since edison created it. its used by
literally everyone. you would think someone would realize the
potential in mass producing something better..

however i don't think its physically possible to heat a home using 3
lightbulbs. besides a lightbulb mostly creates heat.

Roedy Green <email***@***.com> wrote in message news:<email***@***.com>...
> On 8 Jan 2004 09:19:43 -0800, email***@***.com (Loco
> Pollo) wrote or quoted :
>
> >it would take 7 planet earths to support
> >everyone with this wasteful lifestyle because we are on the whole
> >inefficient with our resources.
>
> The problem is we have some habits left over from our cave man days
> documented by Thorsten Veblen in the Theory Of The Leisure Class (a
> very funny book published in 1899).
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140187952/canadianmindprod
>
> We like to impress each other with conspicuous consumption and
> conspicuous waste.
>
> Somehow, we must come to equate status with efficient and parsimonious
> use of resources.
>
> I was horrified to learn that the technology to build a house in
> Canada that can be heated with a single light bulb costs only a few
> thousand dollars extra, yet almost no one takes advantage of it.
>
> Yet the houses built today will NEED that technology to be practical
> after the age of oil.
>
> We are like castaways on a desert island, deciding to have a feast on
> whatever washed ashore, before we have any plan to live off the land.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China Roedy Green wrote:
<snip>
> Native indian art is a big tourist draw where I live in BC. The top
> carvers and artists are highly respected members of the community, --
> by far the best known artists in the province.
>
> At least on the west coast things are gradually improving.
<snip>

You paint pretty picture: too bad it's inaccurate. Who do you think
accosts you on Granville St? Been to the Downtown Eastside recently?
Of course you won't see this on Robsonstrasse...

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China email***@***.com (Loco Pollo) writes:

> the light bulb is an interesting question tho. its horribly
> inefficient. hasn't changed since edison created it. its used by
> literally everyone. you would think someone would realize the
> potential in mass producing something better..

Halogen lamps, Neon lights, ...

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China "Phillip Lord" <email***@***.com> wrote:
> The argument is flawed. The only reason that outsourcing is so
> popular, and the only reason that, for example, India can do so much
> programming so cheaply is the cost of living is so much less there.

I'm living in Bosnia (small country in south-eastern Europe) and it belongs
to
3rd world country and here man must spend about 200 euro for month just
for home made food (restorants here are expensive) for a member of family
i.e. for 4 person family food costs 800euro a month.

Average salary for IT personal with university degree is 600 euro a month
and it is going up in my estimation 20% a year, and it is obvious that in
ten years
it will be close to income of about 1500-3500 euro a month in a west europe
countries.

(this conversation sure is off-topic in comp.lang.java.programmer).

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China >>>>> "Loco" == Loco Pollo <email***@***.com> writes:

>> >this is anti free trade and ultimately anti freedom.
>>
>> Free trade is not necessarily a good thing.

Loco> no but many good can come of it.

>> First it encourages shipping goods all over the planet that could
>> have been produced locally. This wastes fuel and pollutes the
>> atmosphere.

Loco> in a truly market economy, it wouldn't happen unless it is
Loco> cost effective. this would include the cost of pollution.

No it wouldn't. The market economy fails to work for any commodity
where the cost of charging for that commodity either outweighs the
value of that commodity, or worse, there is no way to charge for a
commodity.

For example, I like hill walking. In the UK there are lots of
hills. Its not possible to charge for them because building a large
fence around the for example, the 150 miles of the peninnes would cost
a massive amount. Worse there is a legal "right to roam" which
effectively stops the land owners from doing this anyway.

Of course in the US, it would be a different matter, as you would just
build a gate across the road leading too the hills, which would
effectively block all access.

>> It enables multinationals to exploit workers by threatening to
>> move to where labour and environmental laws are laxest.

Loco> multinationals are no different than national companies. if a
Loco> country "can" manage a national company, i see no reason why
Loco> the world can't manage a multinational.

We don't have a world government. The only "regulatory" bodies for
multinationals for some reason seem to work in the interest of the
multinationals, or more accurately the interest of those who own the
multinationals rather than the population at large.

Phil

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China >>>>> "Mladen" == Mladen Adamovic <email***@***.com> writes:

Mladen> "Phillip Lord" <email***@***.com> wrote:
>> The argument is flawed. The only reason that outsourcing is so
>> popular, and the only reason that, for example, India can do so
>> much programming so cheaply is the cost of living is so much less
>> there.

Mladen> I'm living in Bosnia (small country in south-eastern Europe)
Mladen> and it belongs to 3rd world country

Bosnia and the surrounding countries are I suspect somewhat of an
exception because of recent history.

Mladen> and here man must spend about 200 euro for month just for
Mladen> home made food (restorants here are expensive) for a member
Mladen> of family i.e. for 4 person family food costs 800euro a
Mladen> month.

This is about the same as food is in the UK.

Mladen> Average salary for IT personal with university degree is 600
Mladen> euro a month and it is going up in my estimation 20% a year,
Mladen> and it is obvious that in ten years it will be close to
Mladen> income of about 1500-3500 euro a month in a west europe
Mladen> countries.

This would be about correct. Although in the UK transport and housing
are fairly expensive. I pay around 600 Euro's a month for a fairly
crap flat, and I live in the relatively cheap north of Britain.

Phil

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China Michael Borgwardt <email***@***.com> wrote in message news:<btopnk$96m5i$email***@***.com>...
> Loco Pollo wrote:
> >>First it encourages shipping goods all over the planet that could have
> >>been produced locally. This wastes fuel and pollutes the atmosphere.
> >
> >
> > in a truly market economy, it wouldn't happen unless it is cost
> > effective. this would include the cost of pollution.
>
> That's exactly the problem: each single act of pollution *is* cost effective
> to its perpetrators because their gains outweigh their personal loss.
> But everyone else also has this loss without any gain. When everyone pollutes,
> everyone loses big time, but the market forces are completely unable to
> prevent this. It's a classical example of a "market failure".
> (Lokk it up in Google).

again the problem you address has more to do with corruption than
about the idea of a market economy. pollution is cost effective
because govt allows them to be. however, if a company is responsible
for the "trash" it creates as is natural, act of abusing the
environment would NOT be profitable. nothing about the idea of free
trade says that you can pollute without consequences. the only thing
it says is "Free" and "Trade". everyone should be allowed to trade
with one another without barriers. nothin bout killin owls there.
that's just me during my quite time with my berettas. }:>~

> >>It has made corporations more powerful than local governments.
> >>Government is not done primarily for the good of the corporations, not
> >>the people.
> >
> > again this has nothing to do with the concept of free trade just the
> > corruption of law and order. let me also point out that corporations
> > are made up of people. its not the corporation but the people who
> > commit bad acts.
>
> The problem with the current system of shared ownership of corporations is
> that it removes responsibility for bad acts from most of the people who
> benefit from them.

well yeah i do see that sally who owns shares of exxon probably
doesn't see her self destroying large sections of the world for
generations, but the people who work for exxon understand the
consequences of their actions and those are PEOPLE just like you and
me. a corporation is not a separate, evil entity. they are us and what
they do is a reflection on where humanity is at the moment. a "bit"
greedy and a "bit" short sighted.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China > > I was talking with a senior civil servant in the Canadian federal
> > government. To my shame I discovered that if you look at native people
> > in Canada, their standard of living is equivalent to Brazil's. Here
> > in Canada we have groups of people living in third world conditions.
> >
> > The problem is extremely complex. What is seems to boil down to is a
> > native person has the choice of integrating into white society --
> > which he is free to do, or stay on the reservation, not pay income
> > tax, collect welfare.
>
> What is interesting is that you have a people, dreaming of living like
> their ancestors did 500 years ago. They lived a very tough life 500
> years ago and their standard of living is probably equivalent today to
> what it was then.
> But then you have entire nations like Japan who have managed to embrace
> a "western" culture while keeping much of their own. Their standard of
> living has skyrocketed in the last 50 years.
> So the result is that you have people living in poverty, just to cling
> to some historical fantasy.

i think that is the distinct difference between japan and the rest of
asia. during the critical imperical age of the western world, japan
chose to learn as about the west whereas korea and china chose to
isolate themselves as much as possible out of fear and mistrust.* of
course they were right to fear and mistrust but they failed to evolve
as a result of their protectionist attitudes.

i think the same lesson can be learned here, we can either choose to
revert back to the old protectionist policies or we can choose to
boldly enter the party. pit their cheap labor to our innovation,
style, or whatever happens to be our advantages.

* almost nothing japanese is really japanese its their interpretation
of korea's interpretation of china. they are the ultimate copy and
perfect society. i mean that in the most complementary way.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <email***@***.com> wrote in message news:<email***@***.com>...
> email***@***.com (Loco Pollo) writes:
>
> > the light bulb is an interesting question tho. its horribly
> > inefficient. hasn't changed since edison created it. its used by
> > literally everyone. you would think someone would realize the
> > potential in mass producing something better..
>
> Halogen lamps, Neon lights, ...

halogen creates much more heat than light, much more than regular
light bulbs. neon isn't for lighting its for decoration.

but yeah there are other light technologies. i suppose what i was
amazed at was that nothing has been created to take the place of the
normal lightbulb which is really crap considering our current state of
technology. not to mention the wasted energy spent in replacing those
"d@rnzfst" things all the time.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China > My reading of history is that the advent of the free market was a
> complete disaster for most of the population of Britain. It was only
> with the curbing of the free market toward the end of the 19th
> century, that things improved.
>
> Phil

my reading of history is that what you call "curbing of the free
market" had nothing to do with free trade but with a govt slowly
coming to its senses and protecting people from other people. child
labor has nothing to do with the freedom to buy and sell
goods/services from anyone anywhere it has to do with basic human
rights.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China Loco Pollo wrote:

> Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <email***@***.com> wrote in message news:<email***@***.com>...
>
>>email***@***.com (Loco Pollo) writes:
>>
>>
>>>the light bulb is an interesting question tho. its horribly
>>>inefficient. hasn't changed since edison created it. its used by
>>>literally everyone. you would think someone would realize the
>>>potential in mass producing something better..
>>
>>Halogen lamps, Neon lights, ...
>
>
> halogen creates much more heat than light, much more than regular
> light bulbs. neon isn't for lighting its for decoration.
>
> but yeah there are other light technologies. i suppose what i was
> amazed at was that nothing has been created to take the place of the
> normal lightbulb which is really crap considering our current state of
> technology. not to mention the wasted energy spent in replacing those
> "d@rnzfst" things all the time.

Well, they have light bulbs now that use approx. 1/4 of the power and
last for 5 or more years. I think they are florescent bulbs.
They are very expensive at this point in time but I'm sure the price
will come down.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China "Phillip Lord" <email***@***.com> wrote:
> Bosnia and the surrounding countries are I suspect somewhat of an
> exception because of recent history.

Some really small design companies in my town named orange solutions and
gozo studios
work(ed) at some projects for western countries.

In Belgrade, Serbia exists Code Development ltd. office.
I _heard_ that they pay programmers 4 euro pro hour, but they took 25 euro
pro hour for they work.
I think that is _real_ exploatation of labour.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China Tim wrote:
> Well, they have light bulbs now that use approx. 1/4 of the power and
> last for 5 or more years. I think they are florescent bulbs.
> They are very expensive at this point in time but I'm sure the price
> will come down.
>

I stayed in a hotel room once that had those in place of the
normal incandescent lights, and I was real impressed until
I tried to listen to the radio. I had to turn the lights
off because they produced so much static in the radio (which
was right under one of them.) So radio and other
electronic manufacturers will have to improve their rfi
shielding to coexist with these lights. I won't use them
for this reason plus I expect some type of LED to come to
market and do a better job anyway.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China rkm wrote:

> Tim wrote:
>
>> Well, they have light bulbs now that use approx. 1/4 of the power and
>> last for 5 or more years. I think they are florescent bulbs.
>> They are very expensive at this point in time but I'm sure the price
>> will come down.
>>
>
> I stayed in a hotel room once that had those in place of the normal
> incandescent lights, and I was real impressed until I tried to listen to
> the radio. I had to turn the lights off because they produced so much
> static in the radio (which was right under one of them.) So radio and
> other electronic manufacturers will have to improve their rfi shielding
> to coexist with these lights. I won't use them for this reason plus I
> expect some type of LED to come to market and do a better job anyway.
>

Well, it's not as though you can't use them now and use the LED lights
later. They do work in regular lamps.
Just find one that doesn't affect your radio or plug your radio into
another outlet.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China On 9 Jan 2004 16:17:58 +0100, Peter Kirk <peter> wrote:

> "Roedy Green" <email***@***.com> skrev i
> en
> meddelelse news:email***@***.com...
>> I was horrified to learn that the technology to build a house in
>> Canada that can be heated with a single light bulb costs only a few
>> thousand dollars extra, yet almost no one takes advantage of it.
>
> Hi,
>
> do you have more information about that light bulb thing? (We are
> considering building a house, and any sort of energy saving ideas would
> be
> great).
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>

In Europe there are already multi-national standards and building
certifications for "passive" and "zero-energy" homes. Thousands of such
homes have already been built. Here are a few links:

www.cepheus.de/eng/ph-was.html
http://www.passivehouse.com/English/PassiveH.HTM
www.caddet-re.org/assets/no27.pdf
http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/zeroenergy/

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China >>>>> "Loco" == Loco Pollo <email***@***.com> writes:

>> My reading of history is that the advent of the free market was a
>> complete disaster for most of the population of Britain. It was
>> only with the curbing of the free market toward the end of the
>> 19th century, that things improved.
>>
>> Phil

Loco> my reading of history is that what you call "curbing of the
Loco> free market" had nothing to do with free trade but with a govt
Loco> slowly coming to its senses and protecting people from other
Loco> people. child labor has nothing to do with the freedom to buy
Loco> and sell goods/services from anyone anywhere it has to do with
Loco> basic human rights.

Child labour was of course an issue, but its not the only point.

With the invention of the steam powered mills, combined with the
taxation rules of the day, the existing textiles industry was put out
of business. The mill owners controlled both the mills, and the
surrounding housing which was largely appallingly bad, and of course
the mill owners formed a cartel so that anyone complaining or
attempting to improve the lots of the workforce would be blacklisted
from all of the mills.

What you call the "free market" is more exactly "capitalism". Here a
few people control the majority of the resources, which enables them
to inflict terrible things on most of the population. It's largely
similar to what happened in the US where the mining owners
controlled the mines, accommodation and the company store. And
nowadays what are called "economic action zones" where many of
our clothes and shoes come from.

The free market is a fine sounding thing. People can sell their goods,
and people can buy them whether they want. But if you think this has
much to do with the way we run our society, then you are deluded.

Phil

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China "Phillip Lord" <email***@***.com> wrote in message
news:email***@***.com...
|
| >>>>> "Tor" == Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
<email***@***.com> writes:
|
| >> Of course in the US, it would be a different matter, as
you would
| >> just build a gate across the road leading too the hills,
which
| >> would effectively block all access.
|
| Tor> I think you will find SUVs can be driven off-road. :P
|
| In the UK most SUV's are too be found inside the M25 (the
orbital
| around London). I suspect few of them would actually work off
road,..

Would they work off a cliff? City based
SUV drivers could learn from the lemmings.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China Would you gonna start discusing "The Last Samuray" movie?
CLPJ ... place where programmer with a plenty of free time lives...

"Michael Borgwardt" <email***@***.com> wrote :
> It's true that Japan very intensively embraced western science and
> culture after they were forced to end the isolation; this was mostly
> an effort to end their military and economical inferiority and avoid
> becoming as dominated by western countries as China had been.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China Roedy Green <email***@***.com> wrote in message news:<email***@***.com>...
> On 10 Jan 2004 10:26:47 -0800, email***@***.com (Loco
> Pollo) wrote or quoted :
>
> >exxon understand the
> >consequences of their actions and those are PEOPLE just like you and
> >me
>
> The problem is the shareholders are too distant from the company.
> Basically all the shareholders care about in the return on investment.
> If they were involved closely, they might think twice before allowing
> some of the decisions that are made purely for profit.
>
> The other thing that might help is disclosure of unethical practices.
> Some investors may share away from such companies.

i agree that we as a "intelligent" species are much too uncaring about
the consequences of our choices.

better regulation may curb this problem but i think the fundamental
issue is that most people don't care. they are too selfish to think of
anyone but themselves, their own family, race, nation, or what ever
category they feel most attached to. the solution has to be a paradigm
shift from these short sighted associations to a more global one. to
see india as just another state in the union rather than some <fill in
your stereotype here>.

we in the usa are in a wonderful position to do so given out multi
national origins. free trade is the fastest most effective way to
reach this goal.

java-programmer >> Outsourcing to India and China Roedy Green <email***@***.com> wrote in message news:<email***@***.com>...
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:03:56 +0100, Michael Borgwardt
> <email***@***.com> wrote or quoted :
>
> >>
> >> in a truly market economy, it wouldn't happen unless it is cost
> >> effective. this would include the cost of pollution.
>
> Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (an environmental lawyer, RFK's son) talks about
> this. When companies are permitted to pollute, the cost of cleanup
> gets passed onto the taxpayers. This is a form of corporate welfare.
> In a true capitalist economy, the users of the product should pay for
> the cleanup.
>
> rtsp://video.c-span.org/edrive/15days/e112103_kennedy.rm

aren't some european countries already doin this? companies pay for
the cost of cleaning up the trash they make creates a much more
pollution conscious society. we just happen to have a political system
run by corporate $. of course there's gonna be abuses.